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I've been a member of this forum for over two years now. I've had a Game Gear since 2014 which was the original reason I signed up here, but I've always wanted a Master System and tried several times to add one to my collection. Various other gaming items have kept me from finally buying one though.

For example, back in June 2016 I had to choose between a Dreamcast or SMS and even though I knew I was making a mistake, I went with the DC. Sure, it's a great console and I do like it, but it's just not my passion like I thought it would become. I was so sure it would be a long lasting obsession that I even created a channel dedicated to the Dreamcast, but it wasn't long before I almost completely dropped DC content (although I kept the name Dreamcast Gamer for some reason). A month later, my grandpa handed me $220 for me to spend on whatever I wanted. I must have been drunk on stupidity at the time because without hesitation, I ran out and bought a used 3DS! What was I thinking!? I could've finally had that Master System I had always dreamed of!

For my 17th birthday this year, I was ready to get either the SMS or a 7800. I had recently received a bunch of 7800 games so buying the 7800 first would've made sense. Instead of getting either of those, I randomly bought an Intellivision! Even worse, it was defective and I was stuck with store credit at a store that had no other consoles I wanted! Fed up with all this, I had to do something. I just had to get a Master System before my 18th birthday. I wanted to have one in time for my last Christmas as a minor and nothing was going to stop me. Well, I kinda screwed up once again.

Two weeks ago, I went back to the flea market where I had chosen the DC over an SMS two years before and purchased a Power Base Converter from the same guy who sold me the Dreamcast. While this certainly was a good purchase, it still wasn't the SMS I had desired for so long. At the time, I didn't have enough money for his complete in box Model 1 Master System ($125 Canadian) and the PBC was only $45, leaving me with enough money to buy two complete in box games, After Burner and Altered Beast (my goal is to collect the entire North American SMS library complete in box).

Unfortunately, something's wrong with my Genesis. It plays Genesis games just fine, but after about 10-15 minutes of playing the PBC, if I turn the console off and back on again with either the same SMS game or a different one, I get nothing aside from a black screen. I can leave the system running for 6 hours on a demo just fine, but as soon as I turn it off, it won't work again for several hours. I know it's my Genesis and not the PBC because I did extensive testing on a friend's Genesis last night and it worked perfectly during the entire two hour testing period. I left it on the Altered Beast demo screen for the first hour and spent the last hour changing cartridges every few minutes (After Burner, Altered Beast, and Hang On). The system kept running without any trouble aside from me having to blow on the After Burner cartridge once.

I could just get a replacement Genesis because that would be pretty cheap, but screw that. I'm buying that CIB SMS no matter what! I'm walking in there Sunday morning and buying that thing! I'll keep the PBC though just in case the SMS ever dies since finding a replacement Genesis is much easier and cheaper here in Canada than a Master System. Funny thing is, I'm selling that 3DS tomorrow so I can afford it. That's quite fitting since that 3DS is one of the reasons I didn't already have a Master System and now it's going to help me get one.

That certainly was quite a long story. I'm just glad the waiting is finally over. I do have one question though. I will be testing the console for about 30 minutes before I buy so is there anything I should know to look for? I'm assuming the average SMS should still be working just fine like most Genesis consoles I've seen, but is there a chance the capacitors could be leaking or that anything could fail in the system after I get it home? I've been scarred by the Game Gear's capacitor issues among other problems I've experienced with those handhelds and I don't want to worry about anything like that with a Master System. I just want the console to work for many years without it requiring any repairs. Also, what should I expect to pay in Canadian dollars for a pair of SegaScope 3D glasses with the adapter in good condition? At the very worst, it can have a few minor scratches, but preferably not on the areas of the lenses that I'd be looking out of. I keep finding ones in very poor shape on eBay for $100 and I'm hoping I can get them for cheaper and in better shape. If someone has a pair that they'd be willing to sell me, send me a private message.

Thanks for reading.

Dallas

Game Gear wrote

I do have one question though. I will be testing the console for about 30 minutes before I buy so is there anything I should know to look for? I'm assuming the average SMS should still be working just fine like most Genesis consoles I've seen, but is there a chance the capacitors could be leaking or that anything could fail in the system after I get it home? ... Also, what should I expect to pay in Canadian dollars for a pair of SegaScope 3D glasses with the adapter in good condition? At the very worst, it can have a few minor scratches, but preferably not on the areas of the lenses that I'd be looking out of. I keep finding ones in very poor shape on eBay for $100 and I'm hoping I can get them for cheaper and in better shape.

Dallas

I can't really speak to the internal components issue, but personally when testing the system, if possible, I'd try multiple cartridges and cards just to see if you run into any obvious problems when starting up the system. One problem I ran into was my cartridge slot was a bit loose, so the cartridges could lean back and forth in there too much and it would crash the game. It's a pretty easy fix to re-tension the cartridge slot, so it wouldn't be a deal-breaker but it would be something you'd want to be aware of. Ideally you'd have some glasses to test as well, but assuming a card game works, you could be confident of that port and it would cross that off the list if you had to troubleshoot the glasses or adapter later on.

As for finding 3D glasses and adapter in good condition... frankly the market is a bit crazy these days, plus we're in the run-up to the holiday season, so finding a good deal on eBay will be very tough. The glasses will commonly have a crack near the middle, if not broken legs, due to being handled too roughly. Some people say it's because they're sized for kid-sized heads, but I have a big head and they are fine as long as I put them on and take them off slowly and carefully. For a while you could find some aftermarket glasses that were larger and more comfortable but I haven't looked around for a while and I don't know if they're still available. Still, it's worth the effort because the 3D effect is quite good for 30+ year old tech, especially in games like Maze Runner 3D and Space Harrier 3D. On my 32" screen, the backgrounds in the games look like they're a good two feet behind the television.

I would test the pause button a reasonable number of times; the way it triggers things on a software level is sort of hacky*, it's necessary to complete some titles**, and it's obviously a lot harder to fix than a controller fault would be.

* it's debounced and fed directly to a CPU interrupt line. So it's not something a programmer reads, it just magically intercedes. And if it weren't debounced, it'd almost certainly just crash the machine.

** e.g. in Alex Kidd it's the only way to use anything you've purchased. And you've an obvious age advantage on me, but good luck getting through that castle without using a staff.

Thanks for the advice. I will definitely test both the pause button and card slot while I'm there. Hopefully he has some card games there for me to try because I really don't want to pay $30 at my local game store for Ghost House XD. I actually like Ghost House, but not enough to pay $30 at the moment.

I'll probably just wait for a pair of 3D glasses to show up locally and hope it's in good shape. If I had a full time job, I wouldn't care, but I don't so I have to make sure I really want something badly enough before I shell out all that cash.

One thing I just discovered while browsing segaretro.org this morning is that my goal of collecting a complete North American set is not as easy to achieve as I first thought. I though it was weird that my copies of After Burner and Altered Beast had several foreign languages on the box and in the manual, but I assumed they were still North American games since Altered Beast had a sticker on the back that says at the bottom "CONSUMERS® TORONTO CANADA". Turns out both are from Europe, but I'm guessing since these were sold here in Canada when they were new that they could just count as a North American release like Sonic 1 and Golden Axe Warrior with a UPC sticker? Also, aren't these games technically PAL? How do they run correctly on my NTSC Genesis and Power Base Converter? I'm not surprised by this since I've always known the SMS is (for the most part) region free, but I don't understand how they run at the correct speed on an NTSC machine. Doesn't that mean these PAL carts would run too slowly on a PAL SMS?

Edit: I tested a few games in Fusion 3.64 and I noticed that Golden Axe Warrior runs at the same speed on both a PAL and NTSC console, but everything else including Fantasy Zone, After Burner, Double Dragon, and Sonic The Hedgehog ran too slowly in PAL. Can anyone help explain to me why one game ran the same, but others didn't?

Game Gear wrote

I'm not surprised by this since I've always known the SMS is (for the most part) region free, but I don't understand how they run at the correct speed on an NTSC machine. Doesn't that mean these PAL carts would run too slowly on a PAL SMS?

The PAL experience, probably all the way up to the Dreamcast, was frequently of playing games ~17% too slowly. I don't know which games Sega tweaked and which they didn't, but it wouldn't be exceptional if the games were just left to run more slowly.

It's not just about laziness either, a lot of titles of that vintage aren't really written in a way that would make them easy to adapt. It's all integers of certain limited ranges, so adapting everything to a non-integral multiple isn't necessarily realistic.

EDIT: also, if playing the 3d games as intended is more your objective than necessarily owning the original hardware, then compatible modern alternatives to the 3d glasses. is the first link I found; I'm sure it's not the only option.

So some games just have the ability to change speed depending on the console? Also, I would like the original 3D glasses if possible. I want to wear as much official Sega gear as possible XD

One question I do have about the 3D glasses and even alternative ones is how well do they work for someone wearing prescription lenses? I believe the original Sega glasses can be worn over top of my glasses, but those modern ones don't look like they can do that.

No, the games just run slower on PAL consoles and that's the end of that. So in principle, those of us who grew up in PAL regions should tend to win high score competitions, but lose speed runs.

I've not used any actually modern shutter glasses, but I tried an Asus pair from c. 2000, and they were advertised as being compatible with ordinary glasses. But I couldn't even speak as to that from experience, just as to the claimed features, and they seemed fairly large.

Fascinating. So a lot of European games only run at the correct speed on a NTSC console in that case. That explains why I didn't realize right away that the games I have are European imports. I'm still confused why Golden Axe Warrior ran at the same speed on both though.

Game Gear wrote

... I'm still confused why Golden Axe Warrior ran at the same speed on both though.

Don't take my word for it but I think some games handle how they update the screen and sprites differently than just by using the system clock. Using clever programming tricks, you can get a game to run the same speed on systems running at different clocks. I know later DOS games and modern games do this by implementing a Tick counting system, so who's to say Sega Master System games can't use this technique either.

I just got home with my complete in box Sega Master System! I'm about to connect it to my TV and begin playing Fantasy Zone. I do have a question about the RF adapter though. It did include the original RF adapter, but it seemed to be defective so the guy at the flea market handed me a Genesis one instead and it worked perfectly. I guess this is a stupid thing to be neurotic about, but should I have kept the original one even though it was broken just so I could say I owned everything that was originally in the box? Everything else is there and in good condition including a 1987 game catalog.

As it turns out, I'm missing the F-Type converter and matching transformer so I don't feel bad anymore seeing as it was never truly complete in box. Also, my Light Phaser doesn't work. I couldn't test it at the flea market because all the guy had there was an LCD, but he claimed he tested it at home on a CRT. That may be true, but sadly it no longer works, like not at all. Neither my Genesis with the Power Base Converter or my Master System respond to me firing the gun. I'll be taking the gun back in two weeks when he's back and exchange it for something else (he doesn't have another Light Phaser) and in about half an hour I'll be going to my local video game store to pick up another one. I know it's possible to fix the Light Phaser, but I don't have knowledge with repairing things like that and the only people in Winnipeg that repair stuff like this are TERRIBLE. One of them couldn't fix my Game Gear when I tried to get it repaired. In fact, they made it worse, so finally they just handed me another one that they claimed to have repaired which is in no better shape than my old one was when it still worked, but at least this one is functioning. I'll have to buy a recapped one on eBay someday.

Finally re-entering the world of SMS, sort of anyway, got one of those raphnet SMS converters for the genesis and been playing hang-on/safari hunt a lot. Need to buy some more games. :P

Just tried my raphnet SMS adapter on the retron 3 and works like a charm. (Hardware clone rather than emulation.) The Genesis on a chip clone must be close enough to a real genesis to have an SMS mode also. I seem to remember reading GOAC's are pretty much based on the genesis model 2 setup.

The Zilog Z80 (the Master System's CPU) was a major component of all Sega Genesis/Mega Drive consoles. It was used to run the code for the sound drivers for many games so it's not just there for SMS compatibility which explains why your Retron 3 supports SMS games. The SN76489 (SMS sound chip) was also used in some Genesis games so that's another necessary component.

Game Gear wrote

The Zilog Z80 (the Master System's CPU) was a major component of all Sega Genesis/Mega Drive consoles. It was used to run the code for the sound drivers for many games so it's not just there for SMS compatibility which explains why your Retron 3 supports SMS games. The SN76489 (SMS sound chip) was also used in some Genesis games so that's another necessary component.

Thank you Game Gear. It's really cool It'll boot up SMS, that and a raphnet adapter can be a cheaper way of entry into SMS.

Definitely. That's why I first bought a Power Case Converter, although sadly my Genesis doesn't seem to like it very much (possible because the Model 1 revision that I have is known to have problems) so I finally said "screw it" and bought a real SMS XD

Game Gear wrote

Definitely. That's why I first bought a Power Case Converter, although sadly my Genesis doesn't seem to like it very much (possible because the Model 1 revision that I have is known to have problems) so I finally said "screw it" and bought a real SMS XD

Yeah way back in the day I had two real SMS systems, a powerbase converter. But sold off my collection after a death in the family. Just now getting back into it with the raphnet adapter a friend of mine gifted me for my birthday. So far only have hang-on/safari hunt, waiting on that after burner. but I'm on my way. :)

It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes?

Just as a curiosity, of course.

After Burner is a great start. There's a certain charm to the SMS version, especially with those exclusive boss battles. One game that I'd highly recommend is Fantasy Zone. So far that's the game I've spent the most time playing because it's so addicting. I just can't get enough of it :)

TomHarte wrote

It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes?

Just as a curiosity, of course.

I think it functions just as a genesis would, so probably not. If I had the power base converter with the card slot and the game I'd definitely give it a shot. Hang-on/safari hunt boots right up didn't even have to clean the cart when I got it.

TomHarte wrote

It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes?

Just as a curiosity, of course.

The RetroN 3 is only compatible with SMS games because Genesis games require Master System hardware as well as Genesis hardware. Since the RetroN 3's goal was to support Genesis games and not the SMS, I highly doubt that it's compatible with SG-1000 video modes. I wonder if the RetroN 5 is though since it's just an emulation console and it officially supports both SMS and GG. F16 Fighter Falcon is the only game like this though so it doesn't really matter, but it is likely that the RetroN 5 can run it.

Game Gear wrote

TomHarte wrote

It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes?

Just as a curiosity, of course.

The RetroN 3 is only compatible with SMS games because Genesis games require Master System hardware as well as Genesis hardware. Since the RetroN 3's goal was to support Genesis games and not the SMS, I highly doubt that it's compatible with SG-1000 video modes. I wonder if the RetroN 5 is though since it's just an emulation console and it officially supports both SMS and GG. F16 Fighter Falcon is the only game like this though so it doesn't really matter, but it is likely that the RetroN 5 can run it..

That it mimicking the genesis, it would probably act like a real genesis and not have that SG-1000 mode also.

Though it doesn't state it on the box, it's cool you basically are getting an SMS and genesis clone in one. (With an adapter anyway)

maxxcat2020 wrote

Game Gear wrote

TomHarte wrote

It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes?

Just as a curiosity, of course.

The RetroN 3 is only compatible with SMS games because Genesis games require Master System hardware as well as Genesis hardware. Since the RetroN 3's goal was to support Genesis games and not the SMS, I highly doubt that it's compatible with SG-1000 video modes. I wonder if the RetroN 5 is though since it's just an emulation console and it officially supports both SMS and GG. F16 Fighter Falcon is the only game like this though so it doesn't really matter, but it is likely that the RetroN 5 can run it..

That it mimicking the genesis, it would probably act like a real genesis and not have that SG-1000 mode also.

Exactly.

Also, I just remembered something about After Burner for the SMS. Apparently it's a little finicky with some Genesis consoles. I know this was the first game to give me trouble on my Sega Genesis Model 1 VA7 (which is known as the worst Model 1 revision and that's likely why the PBC has issues on it). If After Burner doesn't work on your RetroN 3, you might want to consider buying a real Genesis (that is if you really need to play After Burner). I've always liked clone consoles by Hyperkin and Retro-Bit (and despising everything Sega/AtGames XD), but there's no denying that a real Genesis (even my VA7 although for SMS games, I can't recommend it due to the issues I've with it) is a nicer experience.

Game Gear wrote

maxxcat2020 wrote

Game Gear wrote

TomHarte wrote

It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes?

Just as a curiosity, of course.

The RetroN 3 is only compatible with SMS games because Genesis games require Master System hardware as well as Genesis hardware. Since the RetroN 3's goal was to support Genesis games and not the SMS, I highly doubt that it's compatible with SG-1000 video modes. I wonder if the RetroN 5 is though since it's just an emulation console and it officially supports both SMS and GG. F16 Fighter Falcon is the only game like this though so it doesn't really matter, but it is likely that the RetroN 5 can run it..

That it mimicking the genesis, it would probably act like a real genesis and not have that SG-1000 mode also.

Exactly.

Also, I just remembered something about After Burner for the SMS. Apparently it's a little finicky with some Genesis consoles. I know this was the first game to give me trouble on my Sega Genesis Model 1 VA7 (which is known as the worst Model 1 revision and that's likely why the PBC has issues on it). If After Burner doesn't work on your RetroN 3, you might want to consider buying a real Genesis. I've always liked clone consoles by Hyperkin and Retro-Bit (and despising everything Sega/AtGames XD), but there's no denying that a real Genesis (even my VA7 although for SMS games, I can't recommend it due to the issues I've with it) is a nicer experience.

Already know the trick of getting it to work, have to power cycle. (Basically keep hitting reset until it finally boots up.) I have to do it with a couple of my famicom carts (Donkey kong 3, the famicom port of the original arcade mario bros.) Or you can turn it on with a working SMS game, turn it off immediately, put After Burner in and it should boot. But my first trick never fails me. :P

Hopefully that works for After Burner. Unfortunately, no games worked with my PBC and VA7 Genesis after about 10 minutes and nothing would again for several hours.

Game Gear wrote

Two weeks ago, I went back to the flea market where I had chosen the DC over an SMS two years before and purchased a Power Base Converter from the same guy who sold me the Dreamcast. While this certainly was a good purchase, it still wasn't the SMS I had desired for so long. At the time, I didn't have enough money for his complete in box Model 1 Master System ($125 Canadian) and the PBC was only $45, leaving me with enough money to buy two complete in box games, After Burner and Altered Beast (my goal is to collect the entire North American SMS library complete in box).

Unfortunately, something's wrong with my Genesis. It plays Genesis games just fine, but after about 10-15 minutes of playing the PBC, if I turn the console off and back on again with either the same SMS game or a different one, I get nothing aside from a black screen. I can leave the system running for 6 hours on a demo just fine, but as soon as I turn it off, it won't work again for several hours. I know it's my Genesis and not the PBC because I did extensive testing on a friend's Genesis last night and it worked perfectly during the entire two hour testing period. I left it on the Altered Beast demo screen for the first hour and spent the last hour changing cartridges every few minutes (After Burner, Altered Beast, and Hang On). The system kept running without any trouble aside from me having to blow on the After Burner cartridge once.

Game Gear wrote

Hopefully that works for After Burner. Unfortunately, no games worked with my PBC and VA7 Genesis after about 10 minutes and nothing would again for several hours.

Game Gear wrote

Two weeks ago, I went back to the flea market where I had chosen the DC over an SMS two years before and purchased a Power Base Converter from the same guy who sold me the Dreamcast. While this certainly was a good purchase, it still wasn't the SMS I had desired for so long. At the time, I didn't have enough money for his complete in box Model 1 Master System ($125 Canadian) and the PBC was only $45, leaving me with enough money to buy two complete in box games, After Burner and Altered Beast (my goal is to collect the entire North American SMS library complete in box).

Unfortunately, something's wrong with my Genesis. It plays Genesis games just fine, but after about 10-15 minutes of playing the PBC, if I turn the console off and back on again with either the same SMS game or a different one, I get nothing aside from a black screen. I can leave the system running for 6 hours on a demo just fine, but as soon as I turn it off, it won't work again for several hours. I know it's my Genesis and not the PBC because I did extensive testing on a friend's Genesis last night and it worked perfectly during the entire two hour testing period. I left it on the Altered Beast demo screen for the first hour and spent the last hour changing cartridges every few minutes (After Burner, Altered Beast, and Hang On). The system kept running without any trouble aside from me having to blow on the After Burner cartridge once.

Actually never had any trouble with my Powerbase converter back when I had one. A clone enthusiast ace said he got it working on retron 3 via powercycling so I SHOULD be good to go. :)

Game Gear wrote

Hopefully that works for After Burner. Unfortunately, no games worked with my PBC and VA7 Genesis after about 10 minutes and nothing would again for several hours.

Game Gear wrote

Two weeks ago, I went back to the flea market where I had chosen the DC over an SMS two years before and purchased a Power Base Converter from the same guy who sold me the Dreamcast. While this certainly was a good purchase, it still wasn't the SMS I had desired for so long. At the time, I didn't have enough money for his complete in box Model 1 Master System ($125 Canadian) and the PBC was only $45, leaving me with enough money to buy two complete in box games, After Burner and Altered Beast (my goal is to collect the entire North American SMS library complete in box).

Unfortunately, something's wrong with my Genesis. It plays Genesis games just fine, but after about 10-15 minutes of playing the PBC, if I turn the console off and back on again with either the same SMS game or a different one, I get nothing aside from a black screen. I can leave the system running for 6 hours on a demo just fine, but as soon as I turn it off, it won't work again for several hours. I know it's my Genesis and not the PBC because I did extensive testing on a friend's Genesis last night and it worked perfectly during the entire two hour testing period. I left it on the Altered Beast demo screen for the first hour and spent the last hour changing cartridges every few minutes (After Burner, Altered Beast, and Hang On). The system kept running without any trouble aside from me having to blow on the After Burner cartridge once.

Here's his list so far:

Master System games:

-Ace of Aces: compatible (may fail to work on certain consoles)
-Altered Beast: semi-compatible (works with lots of missing audio)
-After Burner: compatible (may require power-cycling to work)
-Double Dragon: compatible
-Galaxy Force: compatible
-Global Defense: compatible (may fail to work on certain consoles)
-Hang-On/Safari Hunt: compatible
-OutRun: compatible
-R-Type: compatible
-Sonic the Hedgehog (European version): compatible
-Space Harrier: compatible
-Space Harrier 3D: compatible
-Thunder Blade: compatible
-Zaxxon 3D: compatible

maxxcat2020 wrote

Here's his list so far:

Master System games:

-Ace of Aces: compatible (may fail to work on certain consoles)
-Altered Beast: semi-compatible (works with lots of missing audio)
-After Burner: compatible (may require power-cycling to work)
-Double Dragon: compatible
-Galaxy Force: compatible
-Global Defense: compatible (may fail to work on certain consoles)
-Hang-On/Safari Hunt: compatible
-OutRun: compatible
-R-Type: compatible
-Sonic the Hedgehog (European version): compatible
-Space Harrier: compatible
-Space Harrier 3D: compatible
-Thunder Blade: compatible
-Zaxxon 3D: compatible

Seeing as a few of those have issues and there are likely many other that will too, I'd say your RetroN 3 is not a long-term solution for SMS games. It'll work for now, but try to pick up a Model 1 Genesis at some point. They're pretty cheap and they're the best way to play SMS games aside from owning a real SMS.

Game Gear wrote

maxxcat2020 wrote

Here's his list so far:

Master System games:

-Ace of Aces: compatible (may fail to work on certain consoles)
-Altered Beast: semi-compatible (works with lots of missing audio)
-After Burner: compatible (may require power-cycling to work)
-Double Dragon: compatible
-Galaxy Force: compatible
-Global Defense: compatible (may fail to work on certain consoles)
-Hang-On/Safari Hunt: compatible
-OutRun: compatible
-R-Type: compatible
-Sonic the Hedgehog (European version): compatible
-Space Harrier: compatible
-Space Harrier 3D: compatible
-Thunder Blade: compatible
-Zaxxon 3D: compatible

Seeing as a few of those have issues and there are likely many other that will too, I'd say your RetroN 3 is not a long-term solution for SMS games. It'll work for now, but try to pick up a Model 1 Genesis at some point. They're pretty cheap and they're the best way to play SMS games aside from owning a real SMS.

Might invest in one later probably a cheapie console only one or something. But not too bothered by retron compatibilities, if all else fails can just buy and emulate whatever doesn't work. :P

Game Gear wrote

TomHarte wrote

It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes?

Just as a curiosity, of course.

The RetroN 3 is only compatible with SMS games because Genesis games require Master System hardware as well as Genesis hardware.

No piece of Mega Drive software uses Mode 4; there is no inherent reason to include it in a clone console — it doesn't affect Mega Drive software compatibility.

It's also almost certainly a sign of deliberate intent that Powerbase-esque converters work. It's not a given that they inherently will. They don't work on either a Nomad or a Genesis 3 without modification.

TomHarte wrote

Game Gear wrote

TomHarte wrote

It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes?

Just as a curiosity, of course.

The RetroN 3 is only compatible with SMS games because Genesis games require Master System hardware as well as Genesis hardware.

No piece of Mega Drive software uses Mode 4; there is no inherent reason to include it in a clone console — it doesn't affect Mega Drive software compatibility.

It's also almost certainly a sign of deliberate intent that Powerbase-esque converters work. It's not a given that they inherently will. They don't work on either a Nomad or a Genesis 3 without modification.

Good point, Tom. They might have had SMS compatibility in mind with retron 3, retro-gen adapter, etc.

Either way, I'm just happy to be able to play/collect again. :)

Of course, I might be overthinking it; as I understand it, stolen IP often went into these system-on-a-chip implementations. It's not necessarily a new design, it might be one of Sega's real designs, obtained nefariously. In which case it wouldn't necessarily imply specific effort.

TomHarte wrote

Of course, I might be overthinking it; as I understand it, stolen IP often went into these system-on-a-chip implementations. It's not necessarily a new design, it might be one of Sega's real designs, obtained nefariously. In which case it wouldn't necessarily imply specific effort.

Nah there's no bios, and the patents ran out in 2005 I believe. So nothing stolen, now if they included something like the SMS bios then there would be illegalities and probably would have been sued by now.

TomHarte wrote

Of course, I might be overthinking it; as I understand it, stolen IP often went into these system-on-a-chip implementations. It's not necessarily a new design, it might be one of Sega's real designs, obtained nefariously. In which case it wouldn't necessarily imply specific effort.

In fact, you, me or anyone can make up a genesis, snes, nes, SMS, etc clone and sell it as long as we don't include any copyrighted code.

It's also how intellivision and coleco were able to get away with 2600 add-on's for their systems.

And also how IBM compatibles/clones in the 80's got away with it also. They used nothing copyrighted by IBM. Which is kind of funny thinking about it, as the clones/compatibles are what basically have become the norm now, while IBM's pretty much out of the PC market.

TomHarte wrote

Of course, I might be overthinking it; as I understand it, stolen IP often went into these system-on-a-chip implementations. It's not necessarily a new design, it might be one of Sega's real designs, obtained nefariously. In which case it wouldn't necessarily imply specific effort.

If whomever designed the chip somehow obtained original Segs blueprints/netlists/equivalent and reused them then that's the IP theft. But it would mean that nobody sat down and reimplemented the VDP, so nobody had to go through the thought process of whether to bother with Mode 4.

I know there are various earlier examples where legitimate companies did essentially the same thing — e.g. the possibly apocryphal sorry that Ni****do decapped and then duplicated the 6502, just erasing the one part that was patented — but I think they all predate proper court testing of this stuff.

That is, regardless of it definitely being legal to reimplement.

TomHarte wrote

TomHarte wrote

Of course, I might be overthinking it; as I understand it, stolen IP often went into these system-on-a-chip implementations. It's not necessarily a new design, it might be one of Sega's real designs, obtained nefariously. In which case it wouldn't necessarily imply specific effort.

If whomever designed the chip somehow obtained original Segs blueprints/netlists/equivalent and reused them then that's the IP theft. But it would mean that nobody sat down and reimplemented the VDP, so nobody had to go through the thought process of whether to bother with Mode 4.

I know there are various earlier examples where legitimate companies did essentially the same thing — e.g. the possibly apocryphal sorry that Ni****do decapped and then duplicated the 6502, just erasing the one part that was patented — but I think they all predate proper court testing of this stuff.

That is, regardless of it definitely being legal to reimplement.

The patents are completely expired in either 2005 or 2006, they are using compatible parts, not the exact ones. It basically is the same exact situation as the IBM compatibles/clones which were deemed legal. (As basically both you and I are using one now) Now what happened with the atari flashback 2 would be what you're talking about. There's an official, legit, atari made flashback 2, then there were these chinese bootlegs, that not only had the hardware cloned, BUT also the licensed games (without permission.) and they got sued to all hell.

It's also the reason SNES clones don't have the copy protect lockout chip, that's definitely IP covered. I also can't imagine Ni****do of all people not suing if their IP's were being infringed in that matter, considering they're still taking down ROM sites, and have the NES mini out on the market.

If I remember right you can't copyright a hardware setup. You can only patent it. Now you can kind of LINK it to IP if you make it absolutely need a bios for the system to run. But once a hardware setups patent is expired, and doesn't need a bios or any code that's copyrighted then it's free for anyone to clone.

Oh and clones can't completely copy the look of a system. ( I guess that explains why most clones look nothing like the originals.)

Looks like genesis portion (the middle) is just one single chip that does everything (Like NES clones) compared to the SNES clone on the right side.

https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/yoR4SsCZVuyAbWim.huge

Edit: Looks like the genesis on a chip the TCT-6801, you can buy right off the shelf so it looks like clone makers went the atari 2600 intellivsion/coleco adapter way. Use off the shelf parts, which wouldn't be legally infringing IP.

Took your advice Game Gear, invested in a real genesis. Figured I could definitely use it especially if I run across some super cheap sega cd add on or a 32x also.

Went with a model 2 genny, as I seen the raphnet adapter work on those no problem, and I'm nostalgic for that model. :P

Congrats! Model 2s are nice, especially if you plan on using the Sega CD and 32x since the 32x looks more proper on a model 2 and I've heard that the Sega CD model 2 is better because it's easier to repair and of course it's designed for your model. If you ever get a 32x, make sure you get After Burner for it because that's one of the best ports of the game.

Game Gear wrote

Congrats! Model 2s are nice, especially if you plan on using the Sega CD and 32x since the 32x looks more proper on a model 2 and I've heard that the Sega CD model 2 is better because it's easier to repair and of course it's designed for your model. If you ever get a 32x, make sure you get After Burner for it because that's one of the best ports of the game.

So now at least I have the hard ware (Sort of anyway.) :) And should be able to play anything except the card games which doesn't bother me anyway.

Here's a video showcasing what I have for my Master System so far as well as a cover I made of the song After Burner.

Game Gear wrote

Here's a video showcasing what I have for my Master System so far as well as a cover I made of the song After Burner.

Nice! Just got my model 2 in the mail today, along with my CIB thunder blade SMS today. :)

maxxcat2020, I remember getting thunder blade in 1989 and playing the heck out of it. what a great game, and great time those were! :)

dink wrote

maxxcat2020, I remember getting thunder blade in 1989 and playing the heck out of it. what a great game, and great time those were! :)

Agreed I had it back when I originally had an SMS, and actually like it more than the genesis/megadrive super thunder blade.

Author	Message
Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	I'm finally getting a Master System (for real this time) Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:20 pm Last edited by Game Gear on Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
	I've been a member of this forum for over two years now. I've had a Game Gear since 2014 which was the original reason I signed up here, but I've always wanted a Master System and tried several times to add one to my collection. Various other gaming items have kept me from finally buying one though. For example, back in June 2016 I had to choose between a Dreamcast or SMS and even though I knew I was making a mistake, I went with the DC. Sure, it's a great console and I do like it, but it's just not my passion like I thought it would become. I was so sure it would be a long lasting obsession that I even created a channel dedicated to the Dreamcast, but it wasn't long before I almost completely dropped DC content (although I kept the name Dreamcast Gamer for some reason). A month later, my grandpa handed me $220 for me to spend on whatever I wanted. I must have been drunk on stupidity at the time because without hesitation, I ran out and bought a used 3DS! What was I thinking!? I could've finally had that Master System I had always dreamed of! For my 17th birthday this year, I was ready to get either the SMS or a 7800. I had recently received a bunch of 7800 games so buying the 7800 first would've made sense. Instead of getting either of those, I randomly bought an Intellivision! Even worse, it was defective and I was stuck with store credit at a store that had no other consoles I wanted! Fed up with all this, I had to do something. I just had to get a Master System before my 18th birthday. I wanted to have one in time for my last Christmas as a minor and nothing was going to stop me. Well, I kinda screwed up once again. Two weeks ago, I went back to the flea market where I had chosen the DC over an SMS two years before and purchased a Power Base Converter from the same guy who sold me the Dreamcast. While this certainly was a good purchase, it still wasn't the SMS I had desired for so long. At the time, I didn't have enough money for his complete in box Model 1 Master System ($125 Canadian) and the PBC was only $45, leaving me with enough money to buy two complete in box games, After Burner and Altered Beast (my goal is to collect the entire North American SMS library complete in box). Unfortunately, something's wrong with my Genesis. It plays Genesis games just fine, but after about 10-15 minutes of playing the PBC, if I turn the console off and back on again with either the same SMS game or a different one, I get nothing aside from a black screen. I can leave the system running for 6 hours on a demo just fine, but as soon as I turn it off, it won't work again for several hours. I know it's my Genesis and not the PBC because I did extensive testing on a friend's Genesis last night and it worked perfectly during the entire two hour testing period. I left it on the Altered Beast demo screen for the first hour and spent the last hour changing cartridges every few minutes (After Burner, Altered Beast, and Hang On). The system kept running without any trouble aside from me having to blow on the After Burner cartridge once. I could just get a replacement Genesis because that would be pretty cheap, but screw that. I'm buying that CIB SMS no matter what! I'm walking in there Sunday morning and buying that thing! I'll keep the PBC though just in case the SMS ever dies since finding a replacement Genesis is much easier and cheaper here in Canada than a Master System. Funny thing is, I'm selling that 3DS tomorrow so I can afford it. That's quite fitting since that 3DS is one of the reasons I didn't already have a Master System and now it's going to help me get one. That certainly was quite a long story. I'm just glad the waiting is finally over. I do have one question though. I will be testing the console for about 30 minutes before I buy so is there anything I should know to look for? I'm assuming the average SMS should still be working just fine like most Genesis consoles I've seen, but is there a chance the capacitors could be leaking or that anything could fail in the system after I get it home? I've been scarred by the Game Gear's capacitor issues among other problems I've experienced with those handhelds and I don't want to worry about anything like that with a Master System. I just want the console to work for many years without it requiring any repairs. Also, what should I expect to pay in Canadian dollars for a pair of SegaScope 3D glasses with the adapter in good condition? At the very worst, it can have a few minor scratches, but preferably not on the areas of the lenses that I'd be looking out of. I keep finding ones in very poor shape on eBay for $100 and I'm hoping I can get them for cheaper and in better shape. If someone has a pair that they'd be willing to sell me, send me a private message. Thanks for reading. Dallas

Centrale Joined: 06 Apr 2015 Posts: 89	Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:07 pm
Centrale Joined: 06 Apr 2015 Posts: 89	Game Gear wrote I do have one question though. I will be testing the console for about 30 minutes before I buy so is there anything I should know to look for? I'm assuming the average SMS should still be working just fine like most Genesis consoles I've seen, but is there a chance the capacitors could be leaking or that anything could fail in the system after I get it home? ... Also, what should I expect to pay in Canadian dollars for a pair of SegaScope 3D glasses with the adapter in good condition? At the very worst, it can have a few minor scratches, but preferably not on the areas of the lenses that I'd be looking out of. I keep finding ones in very poor shape on eBay for $100 and I'm hoping I can get them for cheaper and in better shape. Dallas I can't really speak to the internal components issue, but personally when testing the system, if possible, I'd try multiple cartridges and cards just to see if you run into any obvious problems when starting up the system. One problem I ran into was my cartridge slot was a bit loose, so the cartridges could lean back and forth in there too much and it would crash the game. It's a pretty easy fix to re-tension the cartridge slot, so it wouldn't be a deal-breaker but it would be something you'd want to be aware of. Ideally you'd have some glasses to test as well, but assuming a card game works, you could be confident of that port and it would cross that off the list if you had to troubleshoot the glasses or adapter later on. As for finding 3D glasses and adapter in good condition... frankly the market is a bit crazy these days, plus we're in the run-up to the holiday season, so finding a good deal on eBay will be very tough. The glasses will commonly have a crack near the middle, if not broken legs, due to being handled too roughly. Some people say it's because they're sized for kid-sized heads, but I have a big head and they are fine as long as I put them on and take them off slowly and carefully. For a while you could find some aftermarket glasses that were larger and more comfortable but I haven't looked around for a while and I don't know if they're still available. Still, it's worth the effort because the 3D effect is quite good for 30+ year old tech, especially in games like Maze Runner 3D and Space Harrier 3D. On my 32" screen, the backgrounds in the games look like they're a good two feet behind the television.

TomHarte Joined: 24 Sep 2018 Posts: 66	Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:03 pm
TomHarte Joined: 24 Sep 2018 Posts: 66	I would test the pause button a reasonable number of times; the way it triggers things on a software level is sort of hacky, it's necessary to complete some titles, and it's obviously a lot harder to fix than a controller fault would be. it's debounced and fed directly to a CPU interrupt line. So it's not something a programmer reads, it just magically intercedes. And if it weren't debounced, it'd almost certainly just crash the machine. ** e.g. in Alex Kidd it's the only way to use anything you've purchased. And you've an obvious age advantage on me, but good luck getting through that castle without using a staff.

Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:32 pm
	Thanks for the advice. I will definitely test both the pause button and card slot while I'm there. Hopefully he has some card games there for me to try because I really don't want to pay $30 at my local game store for Ghost House XD. I actually like Ghost House, but not enough to pay $30 at the moment. I'll probably just wait for a pair of 3D glasses to show up locally and hope it's in good shape. If I had a full time job, I wouldn't care, but I don't so I have to make sure I really want something badly enough before I shell out all that cash. One thing I just discovered while browsing segaretro.org this morning is that my goal of collecting a complete North American set is not as easy to achieve as I first thought. I though it was weird that my copies of After Burner and Altered Beast had several foreign languages on the box and in the manual, but I assumed they were still North American games since Altered Beast had a sticker on the back that says at the bottom "CONSUMERS® TORONTO CANADA". Turns out both are from Europe, but I'm guessing since these were sold here in Canada when they were new that they could just count as a North American release like Sonic 1 and Golden Axe Warrior with a UPC sticker? Also, aren't these games technically PAL? How do they run correctly on my NTSC Genesis and Power Base Converter? I'm not surprised by this since I've always known the SMS is (for the most part) region free, but I don't understand how they run at the correct speed on an NTSC machine. Doesn't that mean these PAL carts would run too slowly on a PAL SMS? Edit: I tested a few games in Fusion 3.64 and I noticed that Golden Axe Warrior runs at the same speed on both a PAL and NTSC console, but everything else including Fantasy Zone, After Burner, Double Dragon, and Sonic The Hedgehog ran too slowly in PAL. Can anyone help explain to me why one game ran the same, but others didn't?

TomHarte Joined: 24 Sep 2018 Posts: 66	Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:47 pm
TomHarte Joined: 24 Sep 2018 Posts: 66	Game Gear wrote I'm not surprised by this since I've always known the SMS is (for the most part) region free, but I don't understand how they run at the correct speed on an NTSC machine. Doesn't that mean these PAL carts would run too slowly on a PAL SMS? The PAL experience, probably all the way up to the Dreamcast, was frequently of playing games ~17% too slowly. I don't know which games Sega tweaked and which they didn't, but it wouldn't be exceptional if the games were just left to run more slowly. It's not just about laziness either, a lot of titles of that vintage aren't really written in a way that would make them easy to adapt. It's all integers of certain limited ranges, so adapting everything to a non-integral multiple isn't necessarily realistic. EDIT: also, if playing the 3d games as intended is more your objective than necessarily owning the original hardware, then compatible modern alternatives to the 3d glasses. is the first link I found; I'm sure it's not the only option.

Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:53 pm
	So some games just have the ability to change speed depending on the console? Also, I would like the original 3D glasses if possible. I want to wear as much official Sega gear as possible XD

Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:57 pm
	One question I do have about the 3D glasses and even alternative ones is how well do they work for someone wearing prescription lenses? I believe the original Sega glasses can be worn over top of my glasses, but those modern ones don't look like they can do that.

TomHarte Joined: 24 Sep 2018 Posts: 66	Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:08 pm
TomHarte Joined: 24 Sep 2018 Posts: 66	No, the games just run slower on PAL consoles and that's the end of that. So in principle, those of us who grew up in PAL regions should tend to win high score competitions, but lose speed runs. I've not used any actually modern shutter glasses, but I tried an Asus pair from c. 2000, and they were advertised as being compatible with ordinary glasses. But I couldn't even speak as to that from experience, just as to the claimed features, and they seemed fairly large.

Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:39 pm
	Fascinating. So a lot of European games only run at the correct speed on a NTSC console in that case. That explains why I didn't realize right away that the games I have are European imports. I'm still confused why Golden Axe Warrior ran at the same speed on both though.

IllusionOfMana Joined: 08 Sep 2018 Posts: 270	Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:45 am
IllusionOfMana Joined: 08 Sep 2018 Posts: 270	Game Gear wrote ... I'm still confused why Golden Axe Warrior ran at the same speed on both though. Don't take my word for it but I think some games handle how they update the screen and sprites differently than just by using the system clock. Using clever programming tricks, you can get a game to run the same speed on systems running at different clocks. I know later DOS games and modern games do this by implementing a Tick counting system, so who's to say Sega Master System games can't use this technique either.

Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:27 pm
	I just got home with my complete in box Sega Master System! I'm about to connect it to my TV and begin playing Fantasy Zone. I do have a question about the RF adapter though. It did include the original RF adapter, but it seemed to be defective so the guy at the flea market handed me a Genesis one instead and it worked perfectly. I guess this is a stupid thing to be neurotic about, but should I have kept the original one even though it was broken just so I could say I owned everything that was originally in the box? Everything else is there and in good condition including a 1987 game catalog.

Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:46 pm
	As it turns out, I'm missing the F-Type converter and matching transformer so I don't feel bad anymore seeing as it was never truly complete in box. Also, my Light Phaser doesn't work. I couldn't test it at the flea market because all the guy had there was an LCD, but he claimed he tested it at home on a CRT. That may be true, but sadly it no longer works, like not at all. Neither my Genesis with the Power Base Converter or my Master System respond to me firing the gun. I'll be taking the gun back in two weeks when he's back and exchange it for something else (he doesn't have another Light Phaser) and in about half an hour I'll be going to my local video game store to pick up another one. I know it's possible to fix the Light Phaser, but I don't have knowledge with repairing things like that and the only people in Winnipeg that repair stuff like this are TERRIBLE. One of them couldn't fix my Game Gear when I tried to get it repaired. In fact, they made it worse, so finally they just handed me another one that they claimed to have repaired which is in no better shape than my old one was when it still worked, but at least this one is functioning. I'll have to buy a recapped one on eBay someday.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:53 am
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Finally re-entering the world of SMS, sort of anyway, got one of those raphnet SMS converters for the genesis and been playing hang-on/safari hunt a lot. Need to buy some more games. :P

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:03 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Just tried my raphnet SMS adapter on the retron 3 and works like a charm. (Hardware clone rather than emulation.) The Genesis on a chip clone must be close enough to a real genesis to have an SMS mode also. I seem to remember reading GOAC's are pretty much based on the genesis model 2 setup.

Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:13 pm
	The Zilog Z80 (the Master System's CPU) was a major component of all Sega Genesis/Mega Drive consoles. It was used to run the code for the sound drivers for many games so it's not just there for SMS compatibility which explains why your Retron 3 supports SMS games. The SN76489 (SMS sound chip) was also used in some Genesis games so that's another necessary component.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:20 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Game Gear wrote The Zilog Z80 (the Master System's CPU) was a major component of all Sega Genesis/Mega Drive consoles. It was used to run the code for the sound drivers for many games so it's not just there for SMS compatibility which explains why your Retron 3 supports SMS games. The SN76489 (SMS sound chip) was also used in some Genesis games so that's another necessary component. Thank you Game Gear. It's really cool It'll boot up SMS, that and a raphnet adapter can be a cheaper way of entry into SMS.

Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:24 pm
	Definitely. That's why I first bought a Power Case Converter, although sadly my Genesis doesn't seem to like it very much (possible because the Model 1 revision that I have is known to have problems) so I finally said "screw it" and bought a real SMS XD

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:27 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Game Gear wrote Definitely. That's why I first bought a Power Case Converter, although sadly my Genesis doesn't seem to like it very much (possible because the Model 1 revision that I have is known to have problems) so I finally said "screw it" and bought a real SMS XD Yeah way back in the day I had two real SMS systems, a powerbase converter. But sold off my collection after a death in the family. Just now getting back into it with the raphnet adapter a friend of mine gifted me for my birthday. So far only have hang-on/safari hunt, waiting on that after burner. but I'm on my way. :)

TomHarte Joined: 24 Sep 2018 Posts: 66	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:00 pm
TomHarte Joined: 24 Sep 2018 Posts: 66	It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes? Just as a curiosity, of course.

Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:01 pm
	After Burner is a great start. There's a certain charm to the SMS version, especially with those exclusive boss battles. One game that I'd highly recommend is Fantasy Zone. So far that's the game I've spent the most time playing because it's so addicting. I just can't get enough of it :)

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:02 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	TomHarte wrote It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes? Just as a curiosity, of course. I think it functions just as a genesis would, so probably not. If I had the power base converter with the card slot and the game I'd definitely give it a shot. Hang-on/safari hunt boots right up didn't even have to clean the cart when I got it.

Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:14 pm Last edited by Game Gear on Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
	TomHarte wrote It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes? Just as a curiosity, of course. The RetroN 3 is only compatible with SMS games because Genesis games require Master System hardware as well as Genesis hardware. Since the RetroN 3's goal was to support Genesis games and not the SMS, I highly doubt that it's compatible with SG-1000 video modes. I wonder if the RetroN 5 is though since it's just an emulation console and it officially supports both SMS and GG. F16 Fighter Falcon is the only game like this though so it doesn't really matter, but it is likely that the RetroN 5 can run it.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:16 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Game Gear wrote TomHarte wrote It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes? Just as a curiosity, of course. The RetroN 3 is only compatible with SMS games because Genesis games require Master System hardware as well as Genesis hardware. Since the RetroN 3's goal was to support Genesis games and not the SMS, I highly doubt that it's compatible with SG-1000 video modes. I wonder if the RetroN 5 is though since it's just an emulation console and it officially supports both SMS and GG. F16 Fighter Falcon is the only game like this though so it doesn't really matter, but it is likely that the RetroN 5 can run it.. That it mimicking the genesis, it would probably act like a real genesis and not have that SG-1000 mode also.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:17 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Though it doesn't state it on the box, it's cool you basically are getting an SMS and genesis clone in one. (With an adapter anyway)

Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:25 pm
	maxxcat2020 wrote Game Gear wrote TomHarte wrote It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes? Just as a curiosity, of course. The RetroN 3 is only compatible with SMS games because Genesis games require Master System hardware as well as Genesis hardware. Since the RetroN 3's goal was to support Genesis games and not the SMS, I highly doubt that it's compatible with SG-1000 video modes. I wonder if the RetroN 5 is though since it's just an emulation console and it officially supports both SMS and GG. F16 Fighter Falcon is the only game like this though so it doesn't really matter, but it is likely that the RetroN 5 can run it.. That it mimicking the genesis, it would probably act like a real genesis and not have that SG-1000 mode also. Exactly. Also, I just remembered something about After Burner for the SMS. Apparently it's a little finicky with some Genesis consoles. I know this was the first game to give me trouble on my Sega Genesis Model 1 VA7 (which is known as the worst Model 1 revision and that's likely why the PBC has issues on it). If After Burner doesn't work on your RetroN 3, you might want to consider buying a real Genesis (that is if you really need to play After Burner). I've always liked clone consoles by Hyperkin and Retro-Bit (and despising everything Sega/AtGames XD), but there's no denying that a real Genesis (even my VA7 although for SMS games, I can't recommend it due to the issues I've with it) is a nicer experience.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:27 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Game Gear wrote maxxcat2020 wrote Game Gear wrote TomHarte wrote It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes? Just as a curiosity, of course. The RetroN 3 is only compatible with SMS games because Genesis games require Master System hardware as well as Genesis hardware. Since the RetroN 3's goal was to support Genesis games and not the SMS, I highly doubt that it's compatible with SG-1000 video modes. I wonder if the RetroN 5 is though since it's just an emulation console and it officially supports both SMS and GG. F16 Fighter Falcon is the only game like this though so it doesn't really matter, but it is likely that the RetroN 5 can run it.. That it mimicking the genesis, it would probably act like a real genesis and not have that SG-1000 mode also. Exactly. Also, I just remembered something about After Burner for the SMS. Apparently it's a little finicky with some Genesis consoles. I know this was the first game to give me trouble on my Sega Genesis Model 1 VA7 (which is known as the worst Model 1 revision and that's likely why the PBC has issues on it). If After Burner doesn't work on your RetroN 3, you might want to consider buying a real Genesis. I've always liked clone consoles by Hyperkin and Retro-Bit (and despising everything Sega/AtGames XD), but there's no denying that a real Genesis (even my VA7 although for SMS games, I can't recommend it due to the issues I've with it) is a nicer experience. Already know the trick of getting it to work, have to power cycle. (Basically keep hitting reset until it finally boots up.) I have to do it with a couple of my famicom carts (Donkey kong 3, the famicom port of the original arcade mario bros.) Or you can turn it on with a working SMS game, turn it off immediately, put After Burner in and it should boot. But my first trick never fails me. :P

Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:30 pm
	Hopefully that works for After Burner. Unfortunately, no games worked with my PBC and VA7 Genesis after about 10 minutes and nothing would again for several hours. Game Gear wrote Two weeks ago, I went back to the flea market where I had chosen the DC over an SMS two years before and purchased a Power Base Converter from the same guy who sold me the Dreamcast. While this certainly was a good purchase, it still wasn't the SMS I had desired for so long. At the time, I didn't have enough money for his complete in box Model 1 Master System ($125 Canadian) and the PBC was only $45, leaving me with enough money to buy two complete in box games, After Burner and Altered Beast (my goal is to collect the entire North American SMS library complete in box). Unfortunately, something's wrong with my Genesis. It plays Genesis games just fine, but after about 10-15 minutes of playing the PBC, if I turn the console off and back on again with either the same SMS game or a different one, I get nothing aside from a black screen. I can leave the system running for 6 hours on a demo just fine, but as soon as I turn it off, it won't work again for several hours. I know it's my Genesis and not the PBC because I did extensive testing on a friend's Genesis last night and it worked perfectly during the entire two hour testing period. I left it on the Altered Beast demo screen for the first hour and spent the last hour changing cartridges every few minutes (After Burner, Altered Beast, and Hang On). The system kept running without any trouble aside from me having to blow on the After Burner cartridge once.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:56 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Game Gear wrote Hopefully that works for After Burner. Unfortunately, no games worked with my PBC and VA7 Genesis after about 10 minutes and nothing would again for several hours. Game Gear wrote Two weeks ago, I went back to the flea market where I had chosen the DC over an SMS two years before and purchased a Power Base Converter from the same guy who sold me the Dreamcast. While this certainly was a good purchase, it still wasn't the SMS I had desired for so long. At the time, I didn't have enough money for his complete in box Model 1 Master System ($125 Canadian) and the PBC was only $45, leaving me with enough money to buy two complete in box games, After Burner and Altered Beast (my goal is to collect the entire North American SMS library complete in box). Unfortunately, something's wrong with my Genesis. It plays Genesis games just fine, but after about 10-15 minutes of playing the PBC, if I turn the console off and back on again with either the same SMS game or a different one, I get nothing aside from a black screen. I can leave the system running for 6 hours on a demo just fine, but as soon as I turn it off, it won't work again for several hours. I know it's my Genesis and not the PBC because I did extensive testing on a friend's Genesis last night and it worked perfectly during the entire two hour testing period. I left it on the Altered Beast demo screen for the first hour and spent the last hour changing cartridges every few minutes (After Burner, Altered Beast, and Hang On). The system kept running without any trouble aside from me having to blow on the After Burner cartridge once. Actually never had any trouble with my Powerbase converter back when I had one. A clone enthusiast ace said he got it working on retron 3 via powercycling so I SHOULD be good to go. :)

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:19 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Game Gear wrote Hopefully that works for After Burner. Unfortunately, no games worked with my PBC and VA7 Genesis after about 10 minutes and nothing would again for several hours. Game Gear wrote Two weeks ago, I went back to the flea market where I had chosen the DC over an SMS two years before and purchased a Power Base Converter from the same guy who sold me the Dreamcast. While this certainly was a good purchase, it still wasn't the SMS I had desired for so long. At the time, I didn't have enough money for his complete in box Model 1 Master System ($125 Canadian) and the PBC was only $45, leaving me with enough money to buy two complete in box games, After Burner and Altered Beast (my goal is to collect the entire North American SMS library complete in box). Unfortunately, something's wrong with my Genesis. It plays Genesis games just fine, but after about 10-15 minutes of playing the PBC, if I turn the console off and back on again with either the same SMS game or a different one, I get nothing aside from a black screen. I can leave the system running for 6 hours on a demo just fine, but as soon as I turn it off, it won't work again for several hours. I know it's my Genesis and not the PBC because I did extensive testing on a friend's Genesis last night and it worked perfectly during the entire two hour testing period. I left it on the Altered Beast demo screen for the first hour and spent the last hour changing cartridges every few minutes (After Burner, Altered Beast, and Hang On). The system kept running without any trouble aside from me having to blow on the After Burner cartridge once. Here's his list so far: Master System games: -Ace of Aces: compatible (may fail to work on certain consoles) -Altered Beast: semi-compatible (works with lots of missing audio) -After Burner: compatible (may require power-cycling to work) -Double Dragon: compatible -Galaxy Force: compatible -Global Defense: compatible (may fail to work on certain consoles) -Hang-On/Safari Hunt: compatible -OutRun: compatible -R-Type: compatible -Sonic the Hedgehog (European version): compatible -Space Harrier: compatible -Space Harrier 3D: compatible -Thunder Blade: compatible -Zaxxon 3D: compatible

Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:44 pm
	maxxcat2020 wrote Here's his list so far: Master System games: -Ace of Aces: compatible (may fail to work on certain consoles) -Altered Beast: semi-compatible (works with lots of missing audio) -After Burner: compatible (may require power-cycling to work) -Double Dragon: compatible -Galaxy Force: compatible -Global Defense: compatible (may fail to work on certain consoles) -Hang-On/Safari Hunt: compatible -OutRun: compatible -R-Type: compatible -Sonic the Hedgehog (European version): compatible -Space Harrier: compatible -Space Harrier 3D: compatible -Thunder Blade: compatible -Zaxxon 3D: compatible Seeing as a few of those have issues and there are likely many other that will too, I'd say your RetroN 3 is not a long-term solution for SMS games. It'll work for now, but try to pick up a Model 1 Genesis at some point. They're pretty cheap and they're the best way to play SMS games aside from owning a real SMS.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:46 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Game Gear wrote maxxcat2020 wrote Here's his list so far: Master System games: -Ace of Aces: compatible (may fail to work on certain consoles) -Altered Beast: semi-compatible (works with lots of missing audio) -After Burner: compatible (may require power-cycling to work) -Double Dragon: compatible -Galaxy Force: compatible -Global Defense: compatible (may fail to work on certain consoles) -Hang-On/Safari Hunt: compatible -OutRun: compatible -R-Type: compatible -Sonic the Hedgehog (European version): compatible -Space Harrier: compatible -Space Harrier 3D: compatible -Thunder Blade: compatible -Zaxxon 3D: compatible Seeing as a few of those have issues and there are likely many other that will too, I'd say your RetroN 3 is not a long-term solution for SMS games. It'll work for now, but try to pick up a Model 1 Genesis at some point. They're pretty cheap and they're the best way to play SMS games aside from owning a real SMS. Might invest in one later probably a cheapie console only one or something. But not too bothered by retron compatibilities, if all else fails can just buy and emulate whatever doesn't work. :P

TomHarte Joined: 24 Sep 2018 Posts: 66	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:21 pm
TomHarte Joined: 24 Sep 2018 Posts: 66	Game Gear wrote TomHarte wrote It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes? Just as a curiosity, of course. The RetroN 3 is only compatible with SMS games because Genesis games require Master System hardware as well as Genesis hardware. No piece of Mega Drive software uses Mode 4; there is no inherent reason to include it in a clone console — it doesn't affect Mega Drive software compatibility. It's also almost certainly a sign of deliberate intent that Powerbase-esque converters work. It's not a given that they inherently will. They don't work on either a Nomad or a Genesis 3 without modification.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:27 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	TomHarte wrote Game Gear wrote TomHarte wrote It'd be sort of interesting to know whether F16 Fighter works on the RetroN 3; I think it's right to say that it's the only official Master System release that uses one of the legacy SG-1000/TMS video modes? Just as a curiosity, of course. The RetroN 3 is only compatible with SMS games because Genesis games require Master System hardware as well as Genesis hardware. No piece of Mega Drive software uses Mode 4; there is no inherent reason to include it in a clone console — it doesn't affect Mega Drive software compatibility. It's also almost certainly a sign of deliberate intent that Powerbase-esque converters work. It's not a given that they inherently will. They don't work on either a Nomad or a Genesis 3 without modification. Good point, Tom. They might have had SMS compatibility in mind with retron 3, retro-gen adapter, etc.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:46 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Either way, I'm just happy to be able to play/collect again. :)

TomHarte Joined: 24 Sep 2018 Posts: 66	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:47 pm
TomHarte Joined: 24 Sep 2018 Posts: 66	Of course, I might be overthinking it; as I understand it, stolen IP often went into these system-on-a-chip implementations. It's not necessarily a new design, it might be one of Sega's real designs, obtained nefariously. In which case it wouldn't necessarily imply specific effort.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:54 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	TomHarte wrote Of course, I might be overthinking it; as I understand it, stolen IP often went into these system-on-a-chip implementations. It's not necessarily a new design, it might be one of Sega's real designs, obtained nefariously. In which case it wouldn't necessarily imply specific effort. Nah there's no bios, and the patents ran out in 2005 I believe. So nothing stolen, now if they included something like the SMS bios then there would be illegalities and probably would have been sued by now.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:56 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	TomHarte wrote Of course, I might be overthinking it; as I understand it, stolen IP often went into these system-on-a-chip implementations. It's not necessarily a new design, it might be one of Sega's real designs, obtained nefariously. In which case it wouldn't necessarily imply specific effort. In fact, you, me or anyone can make up a genesis, snes, nes, SMS, etc clone and sell it as long as we don't include any copyrighted code.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:03 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	It's also how intellivision and coleco were able to get away with 2600 add-on's for their systems. And also how IBM compatibles/clones in the 80's got away with it also. They used nothing copyrighted by IBM. Which is kind of funny thinking about it, as the clones/compatibles are what basically have become the norm now, while IBM's pretty much out of the PC market.

TomHarte Joined: 24 Sep 2018 Posts: 66	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:14 pm
TomHarte Joined: 24 Sep 2018 Posts: 66	TomHarte wrote Of course, I might be overthinking it; as I understand it, stolen IP often went into these system-on-a-chip implementations. It's not necessarily a new design, it might be one of Sega's real designs, obtained nefariously. In which case it wouldn't necessarily imply specific effort. If whomever designed the chip somehow obtained original Segs blueprints/netlists/equivalent and reused them then that's the IP theft. But it would mean that nobody sat down and reimplemented the VDP, so nobody had to go through the thought process of whether to bother with Mode 4. I know there are various earlier examples where legitimate companies did essentially the same thing — e.g. the possibly apocryphal sorry that Ni****do decapped and then duplicated the 6502, just erasing the one part that was patented — but I think they all predate proper court testing of this stuff. That is, regardless of it definitely being legal to reimplement.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:20 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	TomHarte wrote TomHarte wrote Of course, I might be overthinking it; as I understand it, stolen IP often went into these system-on-a-chip implementations. It's not necessarily a new design, it might be one of Sega's real designs, obtained nefariously. In which case it wouldn't necessarily imply specific effort. If whomever designed the chip somehow obtained original Segs blueprints/netlists/equivalent and reused them then that's the IP theft. But it would mean that nobody sat down and reimplemented the VDP, so nobody had to go through the thought process of whether to bother with Mode 4. I know there are various earlier examples where legitimate companies did essentially the same thing — e.g. the possibly apocryphal sorry that Ni****do decapped and then duplicated the 6502, just erasing the one part that was patented — but I think they all predate proper court testing of this stuff. That is, regardless of it definitely being legal to reimplement. The patents are completely expired in either 2005 or 2006, they are using compatible parts, not the exact ones. It basically is the same exact situation as the IBM compatibles/clones which were deemed legal. (As basically both you and I are using one now) Now what happened with the atari flashback 2 would be what you're talking about. There's an official, legit, atari made flashback 2, then there were these chinese bootlegs, that not only had the hardware cloned, BUT also the licensed games (without permission.) and they got sued to all hell.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:35 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	It's also the reason SNES clones don't have the copy protect lockout chip, that's definitely IP covered. I also can't imagine Ni****do of all people not suing if their IP's were being infringed in that matter, considering they're still taking down ROM sites, and have the NES mini out on the market.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:08 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	If I remember right you can't copyright a hardware setup. You can only patent it. Now you can kind of LINK it to IP if you make it absolutely need a bios for the system to run. But once a hardware setups patent is expired, and doesn't need a bios or any code that's copyrighted then it's free for anyone to clone. Oh and clones can't completely copy the look of a system. ( I guess that explains why most clones look nothing like the originals.) Looks like genesis portion (the middle) is just one single chip that does everything (Like NES clones) compared to the SNES clone on the right side. https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/yoR4SsCZVuyAbWim.huge Edit: Looks like the genesis on a chip the TCT-6801, you can buy right off the shelf so it looks like clone makers went the atari 2600 intellivsion/coleco adapter way. Use off the shelf parts, which wouldn't be legally infringing IP.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:20 am
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Took your advice Game Gear, invested in a real genesis. Figured I could definitely use it especially if I run across some super cheap sega cd add on or a 32x also.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:52 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Went with a model 2 genny, as I seen the raphnet adapter work on those no problem, and I'm nostalgic for that model. :P

Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:01 pm
	Congrats! Model 2s are nice, especially if you plan on using the Sega CD and 32x since the 32x looks more proper on a model 2 and I've heard that the Sega CD model 2 is better because it's easier to repair and of course it's designed for your model. If you ever get a 32x, make sure you get After Burner for it because that's one of the best ports of the game.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:53 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Game Gear wrote Congrats! Model 2s are nice, especially if you plan on using the Sega CD and 32x since the 32x looks more proper on a model 2 and I've heard that the Sega CD model 2 is better because it's easier to repair and of course it's designed for your model. If you ever get a 32x, make sure you get After Burner for it because that's one of the best ports of the game. So now at least I have the hard ware (Sort of anyway.) :) And should be able to play anything except the card games which doesn't bother me anyway.

Game Gear Joined: 10 May 2016 Posts: 130 Location: Canada	Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:56 am
	Here's a video showcasing what I have for my Master System so far as well as a cover I made of the song After Burner.

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:38 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Game Gear wrote Here's a video showcasing what I have for my Master System so far as well as a cover I made of the song After Burner. Nice! Just got my model 2 in the mail today, along with my CIB thunder blade SMS today. :)

dink Joined: 09 Dec 2013 Posts: 228 Location: detroit	Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:27 pm
dink Joined: 09 Dec 2013 Posts: 228 Location: detroit	maxxcat2020, I remember getting thunder blade in 1989 and playing the heck out of it. what a great game, and great time those were! :)

maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:32 pm
maxxcat2020 Joined: 30 Oct 2018 Posts: 62	dink wrote maxxcat2020, I remember getting thunder blade in 1989 and playing the heck out of it. what a great game, and great time those were! :) Agreed I had it back when I originally had an SMS, and actually like it more than the genesis/megadrive super thunder blade.

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