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Since I had a PAL SMS when I was a kid, I've recently been listening to some VGM packs at 50hz speed, with the idea that they would sound closer to how I remember them.

VGM packs such as Streets Of Rage 2, Golden Axe, Alex Kidd In Miracle World, just sound completely wrong to me at 60hz. Even if that was the intended speed, it's just not what I'm used to. Whereas at 50hz they sound exactly as I remember, which is awesome and I'm so glad the inVGM plugin has the option to choose 50hz or 60hz playback.

Anyway, my question is, do all PAL games run at 50hz on a real PAL SMS?

Because, perhaps I'm just remembering incorrectly, but SOME of the VGM packs I've played at 50hz sound too slow to me - which doesn't make any sense. For example, Robocop Versus Terminator. I loved this soundtrack when I was a kid, so I'm almost positive I remember how it sounded on my real SMS. But if I now play the VGM pack at 50hz, it sounds too slow, whereas if I play it at 60hz I could swear that's how I remember hearing it on my PAL SMS. Am I going crazy or did some PAL games NOT run at 50hz on a real PAL SMS?

Everything ran at 50Hz on a PAL SMS. However, some music engines (and some game engines) compensated for the slower speed so they don't play slower.

Years ago, our plan for games like this was to remove the information for rate adjustment, so they always play at the right speed. We could update the packs accordingly. It also stops people being able to play tracks at 200Hz or whatever, but I guess that's not a big deal.

As Maxim was saying, it's set in hardware. Likewise NTSC SMS or any Game Gear will play games at 60hz.

Mega Drive and Saturn behave similar. Foreign games don't change their mode either.

Thanks for the replies so far

Maxim wrote

Everything ran at 50Hz on a PAL SMS. However, some music engines (and some game engines) compensated for the slower speed so they don't play slower.

Interesting, is there a way to tell which games had this compensation and didn't play the music slower?

One way to test this thing would be play the game twice, either in a SMS with 50/60 switch or on a emulator supporting both PAL/NTSC (selectable) :)

Maxim wrote

Everything ran at 50Hz on a PAL SMS.

Yes. Probably the better phrased question is "Were any PAL games optimised to run at the correct (close to 60Hz) speed on a PAL console?"

I haven't come across any PAL games so far that run too quickly on a PAL console switched to 60Hz, but the sad thing I have noticed is that games I've played so far which only got a European release are still clearly running too slowly in both audio and visuals. This is a shame and also a surprise to me given that publishers must have seen how the market was, with Japan dying off early, America not greatly interested and the large bulk of users in PAL territories. Perhaps there's a sensible explanation, or was it simply a case of hedging their bets that a game would be released in an NTSC territory, so developing for 60Hz?

If talking about later era games, maybe they had prospects of releasing Game Gear versions, which was always 60hz?

KingMike wrote

If talking about later era games, maybe they had prospects of releasing Game Gear versions, which was always 60hz?

Of course! I had forgotten about this.

I also believe they were coded for 60Hz because if it works there it works on 50Hz too (just 17% slower), but not the other way.

It would be good to list which games do this, both for gameplay and music. It's fairly easy to try it both ways in an emulator, just so a hard reset when you change settings. In Meka you have to change the system type and speed independently.

OK I just went into MEKA, set the TV type to PAL and set the rate to 50hz, then did a hard reset and loaded up Robocop Versus Terminator SMS version. The music plays at the same speed I remember it being on my real PAL SMS when I was a kid. So one would assume that the music is also playing at 50hz, same as the game itself.

But if I play the VGM pack at 50hz it sounds too slow. Whereas playing the VGM pack at 60hz sounds right. I don't really understand what's going on here, perhaps other members could clarify. Does this mean that Robocop Versus Terminator has this compensation thing that Maxim mentioned?

Because it seems to me that in-game the music rate and game rate don't match.

Taking another example, Alex Kidd in Miracle World, running this game at 50hz PAL on MEKA, then playing the VGM pack at 50hz, the music sounds the same. So here the in-game music rate does match the game rate.

Repeat your RoboCop experiment set to NTSC/60 and see if the music is the same speed, and also the gameplay.

If so, then it is compensating. Therefore the pack, which was made at 60Hz, should not be artificially slowed down by 20%. We can edit the files to make them block the adjustment.

Maxim wrote

Repeat your RoboCop experiment set to NTSC/60 and see if the music is the same speed, and also the gameplay.

If so, then it is compensating. Therefore the pack, which was made at 60Hz, should not be artificially slowed down by 20%. We can edit the files to make them block the adjustment.

I already did that, and if I run the game on MEKA on NTSC at 60hz, the music sounds faster. Too fast. Faster than playing the VGM pack at 60hz. Not sure about the gameplay.

So I guess the game isn't compensating? But why does the music rate not match the game rate? If the game is running at 50hz PAL the music seems to be playing at 60hz, and if the game is running at 60hz NTSC then the music is playing even faster than that, maybe 70hz or something. Is it possible the discrepency is purely related to a problem with the VGM pack?

Also, since you mentioned the possibility of files blocking rate adjustment, I noticed that some of the files in the Sonic 2 VGM pack seem to ignore the rate setting (they play at the same speed whether the plugin is set to 50hz or 60hz). Were they intentionally set to behave this way? Seemed weird to me that only some of the files in the pack do this.

I suppose there could be games we aren't sure of their intended music or gameplay speed. At worst you'd have to analyze the code for clues, or hope a development team member recalls anything.

Just experimenting with this a bit more, I've discovered that the music from "Land Of Illusion Starring Mickey Mouse" and "Sonic The Hedgehog 2" also seems to play at 60hz speed when running MEKA at 50hz PAL.

That makes 3 I've found so far, including Robocop Versus The Terminator.

Here are the full results of my experiments, I only checked games I am familiar with though:

-Aladdin - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Alex Kidd In Miracle World - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Asterix And The Secret Mission - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Black Belt - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Castle Of Illusion Starring Mickey Mouse - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Cosmic Spacehead - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Daffy Duck In Hollywood - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Fantastic Dizzy - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Golden Axe - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-The Jungle Book - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Land Of Illusion Starring Mickey Mouse - PAL = music speed 60HZ
-Lemmings - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-The Lucky Dime Caper Starring Donald Duck - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Mortal Kombat II - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Rampage - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Robocop Versus The Terminator - PAL = music speed 60HZ
-The Simpsons: Bart Versus The Space Mutants - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Sonic The Hedgehog 2 - PAL = music speed 60HZ
-Spider-man: Return Of The Sinister Six - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Streets Of Rage - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Streets Of Rage II - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Tom And Jerry: The Movie - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Wonder Boy In Monster Land - PAL = music speed 50HZ
-Wonder Boy In Monster World - PAL = music speed 50HZ

Author	Message
TheAssassin Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 177	Do all PAL games run at 50hz on a real PAL SMS? Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:14 am
TheAssassin Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 177	Since I had a PAL SMS when I was a kid, I've recently been listening to some VGM packs at 50hz speed, with the idea that they would sound closer to how I remember them. VGM packs such as Streets Of Rage 2, Golden Axe, Alex Kidd In Miracle World, just sound completely wrong to me at 60hz. Even if that was the intended speed, it's just not what I'm used to. Whereas at 50hz they sound exactly as I remember, which is awesome and I'm so glad the inVGM plugin has the option to choose 50hz or 60hz playback. Anyway, my question is, do all PAL games run at 50hz on a real PAL SMS? Because, perhaps I'm just remembering incorrectly, but SOME of the VGM packs I've played at 50hz sound too slow to me - which doesn't make any sense. For example, Robocop Versus Terminator. I loved this soundtrack when I was a kid, so I'm almost positive I remember how it sounded on my real SMS. But if I now play the VGM pack at 50hz, it sounds too slow, whereas if I play it at 60hz I could swear that's how I remember hearing it on my PAL SMS. Am I going crazy or did some PAL games NOT run at 50hz on a real PAL SMS?

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14754 Location: London	Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:34 am
	Everything ran at 50Hz on a PAL SMS. However, some music engines (and some game engines) compensated for the slower speed so they don't play slower. Years ago, our plan for games like this was to remove the information for rate adjustment, so they always play at the right speed. We could update the packs accordingly. It also stops people being able to play tracks at 200Hz or whatever, but I guess that's not a big deal.

lumclaw Joined: 13 Aug 2010 Posts: 117	Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:46 pm
lumclaw Joined: 13 Aug 2010 Posts: 117	As Maxim was saying, it's set in hardware. Likewise NTSC SMS or any Game Gear will play games at 60hz. Mega Drive and Saturn behave similar. Foreign games don't change their mode either.

TheAssassin Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 177	Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:08 pm Last edited by TheAssassin on Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:14 am; edited 2 times in total
TheAssassin Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 177	Thanks for the replies so far Maxim wrote Everything ran at 50Hz on a PAL SMS. However, some music engines (and some game engines) compensated for the slower speed so they don't play slower. Interesting, is there a way to tell which games had this compensation and didn't play the music slower?

sverx Joined: 05 Sep 2013 Posts: 3855 Location: Stockholm, Sweden	Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:18 pm
	One way to test this thing would be play the game twice, either in a SMS with 50/60 switch or on a emulator supporting both PAL/NTSC (selectable) :)

TinpotGamer Joined: 07 Jul 2014 Posts: 38	Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:59 pm
TinpotGamer Joined: 07 Jul 2014 Posts: 38	Maxim wrote Everything ran at 50Hz on a PAL SMS. Yes. Probably the better phrased question is "Were any PAL games optimised to run at the correct (close to 60Hz) speed on a PAL console?" I haven't come across any PAL games so far that run too quickly on a PAL console switched to 60Hz, but the sad thing I have noticed is that games I've played so far which only got a European release are still clearly running too slowly in both audio and visuals. This is a shame and also a surprise to me given that publishers must have seen how the market was, with Japan dying off early, America not greatly interested and the large bulk of users in PAL territories. Perhaps there's a sensible explanation, or was it simply a case of hedging their bets that a game would be released in an NTSC territory, so developing for 60Hz?

KingMike Joined: 14 Oct 2008 Posts: 513	Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:59 pm
KingMike Joined: 14 Oct 2008 Posts: 513	If talking about later era games, maybe they had prospects of releasing Game Gear versions, which was always 60hz?

TinpotGamer Joined: 07 Jul 2014 Posts: 38	Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:36 pm
TinpotGamer Joined: 07 Jul 2014 Posts: 38	KingMike wrote If talking about later era games, maybe they had prospects of releasing Game Gear versions, which was always 60hz? Of course! I had forgotten about this.

sverx Joined: 05 Sep 2013 Posts: 3855 Location: Stockholm, Sweden	Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:17 pm
	I also believe they were coded for 60Hz because if it works there it works on 50Hz too (just 17% slower), but not the other way.

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14754 Location: London	Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:30 pm
	It would be good to list which games do this, both for gameplay and music. It's fairly easy to try it both ways in an emulator, just so a hard reset when you change settings. In Meka you have to change the system type and speed independently.

TheAssassin Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 177	Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:33 am
TheAssassin Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 177	OK I just went into MEKA, set the TV type to PAL and set the rate to 50hz, then did a hard reset and loaded up Robocop Versus Terminator SMS version. The music plays at the same speed I remember it being on my real PAL SMS when I was a kid. So one would assume that the music is also playing at 50hz, same as the game itself. But if I play the VGM pack at 50hz it sounds too slow. Whereas playing the VGM pack at 60hz sounds right. I don't really understand what's going on here, perhaps other members could clarify. Does this mean that Robocop Versus Terminator has this compensation thing that Maxim mentioned? Because it seems to me that in-game the music rate and game rate don't match. Taking another example, Alex Kidd in Miracle World, running this game at 50hz PAL on MEKA, then playing the VGM pack at 50hz, the music sounds the same. So here the in-game music rate does match the game rate.

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14754 Location: London	Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:27 am
	Repeat your RoboCop experiment set to NTSC/60 and see if the music is the same speed, and also the gameplay. If so, then it is compensating. Therefore the pack, which was made at 60Hz, should not be artificially slowed down by 20%. We can edit the files to make them block the adjustment.

TheAssassin Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 177	Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:26 am
TheAssassin Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 177	Maxim wrote Repeat your RoboCop experiment set to NTSC/60 and see if the music is the same speed, and also the gameplay. If so, then it is compensating. Therefore the pack, which was made at 60Hz, should not be artificially slowed down by 20%. We can edit the files to make them block the adjustment. I already did that, and if I run the game on MEKA on NTSC at 60hz, the music sounds faster. Too fast. Faster than playing the VGM pack at 60hz. Not sure about the gameplay. So I guess the game isn't compensating? But why does the music rate not match the game rate? If the game is running at 50hz PAL the music seems to be playing at 60hz, and if the game is running at 60hz NTSC then the music is playing even faster than that, maybe 70hz or something. Is it possible the discrepency is purely related to a problem with the VGM pack? Also, since you mentioned the possibility of files blocking rate adjustment, I noticed that some of the files in the Sonic 2 VGM pack seem to ignore the rate setting (they play at the same speed whether the plugin is set to 50hz or 60hz). Were they intentionally set to behave this way? Seemed weird to me that only some of the files in the pack do this.

lumclaw Joined: 13 Aug 2010 Posts: 117	Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:14 am
lumclaw Joined: 13 Aug 2010 Posts: 117	I suppose there could be games we aren't sure of their intended music or gameplay speed. At worst you'd have to analyze the code for clues, or hope a development team member recalls anything.

TheAssassin Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 177	Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:07 am
TheAssassin Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 177	Just experimenting with this a bit more, I've discovered that the music from "Land Of Illusion Starring Mickey Mouse" and "Sonic The Hedgehog 2" also seems to play at 60hz speed when running MEKA at 50hz PAL. That makes 3 I've found so far, including Robocop Versus The Terminator. Here are the full results of my experiments, I only checked games I am familiar with though: -Aladdin - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Alex Kidd In Miracle World - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Asterix And The Secret Mission - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Black Belt - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Castle Of Illusion Starring Mickey Mouse - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Cosmic Spacehead - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Daffy Duck In Hollywood - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Fantastic Dizzy - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Golden Axe - PAL = music speed 50HZ -The Jungle Book - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Land Of Illusion Starring Mickey Mouse - PAL = music speed 60HZ -Lemmings - PAL = music speed 50HZ -The Lucky Dime Caper Starring Donald Duck - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Mortal Kombat II - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Rampage - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Robocop Versus The Terminator - PAL = music speed 60HZ -The Simpsons: Bart Versus The Space Mutants - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Sonic The Hedgehog 2 - PAL = music speed 60HZ -Spider-man: Return Of The Sinister Six - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Streets Of Rage - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Streets Of Rage II - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Tom And Jerry: The Movie - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Wonder Boy In Monster Land - PAL = music speed 50HZ -Wonder Boy In Monster World - PAL = music speed 50HZ

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